Notice of restriction/land registry

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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 21 May 2009, 23:19

[snip]between 1993-1995, there were no cautions on the register and therefore no legal entitlement,


He already had the entitlement to the interest in the property; whether or not he did anything to protect it.

It's this point that I'm trying to stress and that represents your main problem; the caution and the legal entitlement are completely different things.

I could have transferred my interest at that time to my partner or anyone for that matter if done correctly,


You could have, but your interest was nothing as you were only entitled to what was left over after the Official Receiver / Trustee got his.

I would even had been able to have borrowed even as a discharged bankrupt through the sub prime markets.
What would he have done then...?


He'd have got upset and looked to see if there was any way he could prosecute, if there was any way he could reverse the transaction, or if there was any way he could get his hands on something else instead, like the next property you bought.

the argument that I should have known that 1/2 the house was his and shouldn't have been sold/re mortgaged would have been fundamentally flawed as there was no documentation to prove otherwise at that time.


They'd have said you should have known you were bankrupt, and that people can be assumed to know what happens to assets in bankruptcy. Assets vest in the Official Receiver automatically, he doesn't have to do anything to make them his.

Just as there was no registered caution in 2000 when I did remortgage and another solicitor dealt with that conveyancing, so I find it difficult to believe that another solicitor would have knowingly allowed me to re-mortgage a property which was not mine.


It's only because I gathered they were done at different times and probably by different solicitors that I reckoned the 1996 solicitor probably didn't commit an offence. If he'd been doing it as part of the remortgage process I'd have definitely said he crossed the line.

I'd be very interested to know what other people think. I've
I've also been thinking, but didn't want to say it until the picture was complete, that if you haven't already you should post your circumstances somewhere else and see what other people say.

Once place I'd really recommend (despite the name) is the forums at iva.co.uk (there is an "if an IVA won't work for you" section with bankruptcy topics). There are some very experienced people there, and it's never a bad thing to have lots of people look at the same thing as they will always come up with slightly different angles that other people might miss, not consider, or take differently.

They might even rip what I've said apart, and obviously you'd be hoping they might!

People will be able to give a best balanced view if you post the whole story from start to finish (even though it'll be a nastily long novel), including the complete chronology with all the events, and focussing on the dates people have been in office and the correspondence to them, and the role of your solicitor in 1996. There's a lot more to this than met the eye from your first post!

If you like, I can try and order it all together into a nice little story for you tomorrow night.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 22 May 2009, 08:24

Hi Hg
Once again thank you for your reply, you obviously have sensed my frustration over this and I welcome your feedback.
As you are now already aware the trustee of today has been able to realise his interest as we have now re financed to pay him the £25k, we lost our legal battle but that was being attacked from a completely different angle.

If there's another case to action we are prepared to go all the way as this time it would be me/us as the claimants, costs do come in to consideration but if there's a chance after what we have gone through we are prepared to meet those costs.


With this in mind I should like to take up your offer of composing my little story or as you correctly put it nastily long novel :wink: for others to perhaps offer a different view or in fact the same as yours, and I'm glad you agree there's lots more to this than met the eye from my original post.
So please put it together for me and together we can both then see others view points.
Tilly :)
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 23 May 2009, 01:38

Hello

Sorry - this is me just settled down and having time to look at the forum... I'll try and do it tomorrow night, honest!
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 24 May 2009, 01:21

Hello

A few more things ... in the third post in this thread, what / when was the remortgage that couldn't complete? What happened / etc?

Was the Trustee ever actually informed of the remortgage?

What do you mean by "I didn't even realise I had been a discharged bankrupt until 94. What exactly was it you didn't realise?
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 24 May 2009, 09:34

Hi Hg I shall try and answer your questions
Q.few more things ... in the third post in this thread, what / when was the remortgage that couldn't complete? What happened / etc?
A. when I wrote that post I had not done my investigations, I now know that after going through my file at the solicitors who did the conveyancing for the 2000 re mortgage the only restrictions that they had to deal with were those registered with the Land Registry, namely the then current mortgage lender and the bank(who did not list in my bankruptcy as I had given them a personal guarantee when we took out the business loan)
And the re mortgage was to raise money to settle the bank in full and final.

Q.Was the Trustee ever actually informed of the remortgage?
A. To be honest I don't know, there's nothing on the file to suggest he was but there again there were no cautions in his favour on the land registry.

Q.What do you mean by "I didn't even realise I had been a discharged bankrupt until 94. What exactly was it you didn't realise
A. I guess that's what I thought some one must have mentioned that the bankruptcy stayed with me for 6yrs.
I only found out different when I went to get my certificate of discharge which incidentally states the following
Bankrupt 25th sept 1990
Discharge 25th sept 1994
Dated 28th sept 1994
It seems I was a bankrupt for 4 yrs was that how it was back then?
I was naive to these things back then well It was almost 20yrs ago and I was in my mid 20's.

Hope this helps and I look forward to your reply
Tilly :)
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 24 May 2009, 11:20

This is a separate issue from the other stuff, but...

"the bank(... did not list in my bankruptcy as I had given them a personal guarantee when we took out the business loan)"

Do you mean you gave them security on the property as well as a personal guarantee?
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 24 May 2009, 23:23

Hi
Q.the bank(... did not list in my bankruptcy as I had given them a personal guarantee when we took out the business loan)"

Do you mean you gave them security on the property as well as a personal guarantee?

A.No, we gave them a personal guarantee when we took out the business loan in 87,we defaulted in 1989 and in Aug 1990 just before my bankruptcy they registered a caution, again in my naivety I thought it was to do with the Bankruptcy.
I had no further correspondence with them until 1995 :o when they wrote to us asking for the loan to be repaid(you may recall interests rates had been high), we sought the advice of a solicitor
To cut a long story short after a few years of litigation,the solicitor was able to prove that the bank had made a few mistakes.We agreed to a full and final settlement hence the re-motgage in 2000.

Hope that helps
Tilly :wink:
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 24 May 2009, 23:27

Sorry forgot to mention the original bank loan was in joint names, we were advised to form a Ltd the loan transferred to the company name.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 24 May 2009, 23:34

OK... full post coming up... writing it just now.

Small question, that I don't think anything turns on, asked out of interest: Was it the solicitor dealing with the bank litigation that applied for the removal of the OR's caution? If so that was quite naughty of them, as I presume they did it with a view to the idea that a remortgage could be used to settle the dispute?
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 25 May 2009, 00:13

Ok - I think the story goes something like this?

The Issue:

Bankruptcy order made in 1990, annulled in 2009 at a cost of £25k raised from equity in a property that fell within bankruptcy estate. If the OR's restriction on the property hadn’t been lifted on the discharged bankrupt's unopposed application in 1996, and if the petition debt had been cleared at the same time as the remortgage in 2000, the annulment would have cost (I’m guessing) probably something like £6k.

Does anyone else bear responsibility for the additional costs of £19k incurred?

Facts:

1987
- Business loan taken out in joint names (later transferred to a limited company but personal guarantee given

1988
– Property purchased in joint names

1989
– Default on business loan

1990
- Petition served in respect of a trade debt of £2,000 (only debt, presumably meaning only debt apart from the business loan?)

– Bank obtains caution on property in respect of business loan very shortly before bankruptcy

– Made bankrupt, OR appointed as Trustee(1)

- No equity in property

1993
- Discharge from bankruptcy

1995
– Caution entered on proprietorship register by OR (despite objection)
– Bank make contact regarding business loan. Litigation commences to recover

1996
- Equity in property insufficient to meet bank's charge
- Solicitor applies to remove OR's restriction on property

States:
"Although we appreciate that:-
the beneficial interest of a bankrupt in property vests in the Trustee who can register a caution to protect his interest"

"We contend that the caution amounts to a serious interference with the rights of the proprietors and should only be allowed to remain on the register for a reasonable time in order to allow the cautioner to take definite action"

"The bankruptcy to which the caution relates was discharged in ** 1993"

- restriction removed as no response to application by OR

2000

– Remortgage, proceeds used to pay off negotiated reduced settlement of liability to bank

2004

– New trustee(no2) is appointed to replace OR as Trustee (or trustee ex officio)

2007?

- Trustee (2) vacates office and is replaced by a Trustee(3)

2007/8

- Application for / order for possession. Application made in time before deadline. Resisted, but successful.

2009
– Further remortgage to pay Trustees' fees – now £25k

----

I would recommend editing up the above to make sure you're happy with it and that it's right, and posting on IVA.co.uk to see what people think.

However typing it out sort of made the facts clearer in my own mind.

I think it could certainly be called unfortunate. However I think the solicitor's actions in 1996 were sufficiently 'sharp' that it wouldn't be called the Official Receiver's fault, and I think pursuing the Official Receiver on a matter where their answer will almost inevitably be something very like "I couldn't have got the letter, or else I'd have replied to it" would be fruitless.

I think the blame is with the 1996 solicitor for poor advice and an attempt at sharp practice that didn't pay off, but I suspect that they will have done just enough to cover their backside in this regard.

The reason I say their advice was poor is that it was based on an impossible foundation; the the house became yours again if the OR didn't do something with it.

This just was not the case under the law at the time. I think it's a bit like if you sold your car to your neighbour, and they just left it in their garden and never used it, never even bothered to keep it locked. It wouldn't just become yours again.

The cold comfort: If the house had been dealt with by a Trustee in 1996, or in 2000, the bank would most likely have got all the money they'd been asking for, as no Trustee would have ever fought them on your behalf.

(Edited 27/05/09 to keep chronology complete with later information)
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 25 May 2009, 00:42

Yes it was the same solicitor, but it was 4yrs later we re/mortgaged when we reached agreement with the bank,now I don't know that many solicitors who use crystal balls to see in to the future before advising clients, and in any event there was no way we had sufficient equity in 95/96 to pay what the bank were looking for, so a remortgage would have been futile at that time.(and before you start thinking why did the litigation take so long)
I had to put every thing on hold for a good while believe it or not the bank understood and gave me that time,why, my brother was murdered/killed, he died, so there was much happening for 12-18mths, once the trial was over and when we felt able we resumed the bank litigation.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 25 May 2009, 00:50

I'm sorry to hear about that. You've not had a good time :(

I'll added the equity into my post.

No - the solicitor couldn't have seen what was coming happening, but I think his attempt to change what the future might bring was clumsy at best :(

The fact that there wasn't equity in the property in 1996 again goes in the OR's favour as against the situation suggested in your earlier posts. It makes it appear that there weren't any steps he should have been taking at that time but failed to :(
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 25 May 2009, 08:53

Hg Thanks again :)
To follow up, you said
The fact that there wasn't equity in the property in 1996 again goes in the OR's favour as against the situation suggested in your earlier posts. It makes it appear that there weren't any steps he should have been taking at that time but failed to

A.Ah but there was equity in the property in 1996 but not sufficient if the bank had been able to have made a full claim at that time,and further more the OR knew nothing about the bank as they had not entered in to my bankruptcy.At a best guestimate there was probably £20k equity in 1996.

And again I will say that in 1996 I was in a position where I could have comfortably paid the OR with out any need of raising the money, if he had made contact.
So realistcally he could have taken those steps to realise his interest.
Also another point when I did object to his caution in 1995 through the Land registry would they have not passed on my objection to the OR?and if they did why did he not contact me again to discuss his reason and inform me of his interest.

With the help you have given me I will have a bash at posting on the other forum today.
But hope we can still carry on here as Im sure there are other bits to my story that you may find interesting.
Tilly :wink:
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 25 May 2009, 10:50

They probably would have known about the bank's claim. At the latest as they would have had to have done a land registry search before entering their 1995 caution. If you hadn't told them about that debt before, they would probably have contacted the bank to find out how much the debt was.

However when you first went bankrupt, one of the questions on the form you'd have been asked to fill in would have been about debts secured on the property, so you should also have told them then.

Do keep on posting here too! :) You can never have too many different opinions.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 25 May 2009, 12:43

Hi Hg

When I completed the forms I listed the bank as a creditor and at that time they HAD NOT SECURED ANY DEBTS AGAINST THE PROPERTY.There was only a cpl of weeks if not days between the both,strange but true.

Now again you have said that the Trustee would have known about the bank when he registered his caution, and again I ask WHY did he not enter in to communication with us, was it because he thought he listed lower than the bank? poppycock it would have made no difference as the sums of money we are talking about were a million miles apart....
Whats easier to get £6,000 or £45,000 okay the argument can lye that if you can raise £1 but I had no problem with £6,000 if that had been the sum to settle the bankruptcy.

And another question why did the trustee not offer my partner to buy out my interest when we were in negative equity in 1990 I think they were able to back then for as little as a £1...

So fear not I have plenty more questions and to be honest I like this forum if only that you and I debate this topic, I have now posted on the other forum and not much back other than that's how it was then...and good luck etc
At least you have explored my statements and even if you have not given me the answers which you perceive I want to hear no worries...
Tilly :wink:
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 25 May 2009, 17:38

I'm confused re para 1. At what stage did the bank get security? Before or after the bankruptcy order?

Re para 2. He did list lower than the bank, unless the bank got their charge after the bankruptcy order, in which case it was only valid against your partner's share and not yours.

But again - the question from his point of view: It's his house. Why should he do anything with it if it didn't suit him to?

One other thing I thought was: To what extent is it the delay that is responsible for the increased costs you have to pay? Only really in respect of any interest you've been charged, which isn't a loss to you as it's the time value of money.

If I were the OR I'd argue that the factor responsible for the increase in the costs you've had to pay was your unsuccessful attempt to resist the Trustee's application. He's not responsible for that, and it would have been just as costly if you'd made it 10 years ago anyway.

Melanie Giles is a very good person to get advice from, I sent you there hoping it would be her that answered. I think she's just come up with a shorter and blunter way of saying what I'm thinking, which is that it was the unfortunate way things were then.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 26 May 2009, 07:50

Hi Hg
ref para 1, the banks charge was entered late aug 1990 so it was before the bankruptcy.

The costs are not inclusive of the unsuccessful attempt to resit the Trustee, these are separate.

The cost's of trustee 2 appointed in 2004 are up to the transfer to trustee 3, approx £6000, these costs came from the various notices that he placed and letters etc and did not include any creditor and interest

6mths After the appointment of trustee 3 these costs became approx £20k, they included costs of trustee 2,costs of trustee 3, the creditor, 16yrs interest @15%,and ad valorem.

With regard to interest as a time value of money, again whilst the rules changed in 1993 to 8%, apparently that does not apply to me as I was bankrupt in 1990 when it was 15% so that's the calculation, A bit unfair I think.

I have no problem with the response I had from Melanie, short and blunt it may have been,but I still believe the insolvency service through the actions of trustee 1 have to give me a satisfactory answer, just because that's the way things were back then is not sufficient.
Also the other forum is very busy and maybe I put it in the wrong section as only Melainie responded and within a few hrs it had dropped off the first page as thats a very active site, but Im sure there must be other forums.
Anyway I shall contiune with my quest for the holly grail as thats how this feels.
And thanks again Hg,you have asked many questions which has helped me,I hope we can continue, so please keep asking if you see something that does not look right to you.
Tilly :wink:
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 27 May 2009, 00:02

Urm... I've updated my "story" post for the purposes of keeping everything together, right, and in one place. I hadn't realised that three people held the role of trustee.

Why did Trustee No2 vacate office, and when?

The trustee's costs won't include legal fees, however resisting will nevertheless have cost the trustee time that will appear on the metre.

The interest rates may be unfair, yes. But sadly that's not going to be overcome as they are a matter of fact set by law :(

I still believe the insolvency service through the actions of trustee 1 have to give me a satisfactory answer, just because that's the way things were back then is not sufficient.


If you want to escalate a complaint towards the general direction of the ombudsman you can, and it won't cost you legal fees. I presume that as a govt dept they have a how to complain style somewhere leaflet on their website.

However I think they will regard "because that's the way it was then" as being both a satisfactory and a sufficient answer, on account of that being the way it was then! You would have to find some kind of active failure to act rather than two passive failures to act, neither of which can necessarily be proven to be an actual failure!

(a) it was in their interests to do nothing until the house had equity sufficient to pay securities and debts in full.

(b) if you wanted to do things sooner and more cheaply you (sh/c)ould have. "Sorry guv, but not our fault you weren't better advised..."

(c) "We never got that letter from the Land Registry. Honest mate. No idea what happened to it."

Iva.co.uk is very busy, and I don't really like it's layout. In addition to it's focus being (though not exclusively) IVAs, that's why I live here instead!
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 27 May 2009, 08:30

Well Hg I for one am glad you live here :)
Q.Why did Trustee No2 vacate office, and when?
A. He retired, he had settled all matters regarding my bankruptcy the only thing that was outstanding was how we were going to pay the £6000,he was aware of our financial status and had written back agreeing to a lump sum and then a payment plan until such time as we were in a position to settle in full and final that was in late nov 05.The suddenly things went quiet.Several letters were sent to him as we were anxious to agree these figures.
Then in May 06 we received notification that Trustee 3 had been appointed,he had taken over the 87 cases that Trustee 2 had been dealing with.
Trustee 3 was not prepared to continue in the same vein as Trustee 2 and so the argument commenced and to further compound matters in late Nov of that year they found the creditor,hence the increased costs.
The solicitors were exasperated at what had gone by(they were not specialists in this field but offered a free service to people on benefits as well as fee paying clients)
So they advised us we had no options other than to seek counsel's opinion.....and that's why and when the legal battle commenced.

So I hope you now can understand a little more of why I keep drumming on about Trustee 1.

Trustee 2 did every thing by the book in my opinion and we saw no cause to criticise him.

Hg just out of interest can you tell me what steps Trustee 2 would taken from the time of his appointment,eg creditors dividends etc, I dont really understand that process.

Tilly :P
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 27 May 2009, 23:29

Fair enough - Trustee 2 is out the picture as regards moaning about them. Obviously I can't comment properly as I haven't seen the opinion, but while I understand the exasperation at the new Trustee making a change of track, I can't for the life of me see how they hoped to fight the matter when the agreement with Trustee 2 is tantamount to accepting a lot of things as fact; like liability in general.

What Trustee 2 would have done depends a lot on how far he got.

He'd have had all the usual admin for setting up a new case (there's a lot of checklists that have to be followed to cover yourself in case you miss something, and they have to open a 'bank account' for the estate with the Insolvency Service and things like that).

Presumably he was told about the house, so he'd have run the usual searches and contacted any secured creditors to find out their claims.

He'd have instructed a surveyor to do some sort of valuation; presumably a drive-by unless you know different.

I don't know how cases under the old law work in practice, but he may have had to apply for permission to start proceedings against you, and then of course he'd have had to instruct solicitors to actually start them and prepare a pack of information for them to give them backup as to why they had to right to do what he was asking them to do. At this stage (or beforehand?) he may also have applied for a replacement Form A+J restriction on the property.

If he set the ball rolling for trying to trace the creditor he could have instructed a process server / tracing agent / private investigator to try and find them, or he could have advertised (or both).

He wouldn't have got as far as advertising a dividend I presume, as he didn't actually get any money?
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 28 May 2009, 07:41

Hi Hg
Q. Presumably he was told about the house, so he'd have run the usual searches and contacted any secured creditors to find out their claims.
A. Yes he was and I also presume he did the usual searches

Q.If he set the ball rolling for trying to trace the creditor he could have instructed a process server / tracing agent / private investigator to try and find them, or he could have advertised (or both).
A. He took several months doing this and I know he definitely advertised
Q.He wouldn't have got as far as advertising a dividend I presume, as he didn't actually get any money?
A. He did do the dividend thing that was the final thing he did before we had his agreement to settle.

Q.Fair enough - Trustee 2 is out the picture as regards moaning about them. Obviously I can't comment properly as I haven't seen the opinion, but while I understand the exasperation at the new Trustee making a change of track, I can't for the life of me see how they hoped to fight the matter when the agreement with Trustee 2 is tantamount to accepting a lot of things as fact; like liability in general.
A.Not sure I understand what you mean here, we accepted liability with Trustee 2, I appreciate its difficult for you to comment on the opinion and as this is an open forum and for the sake of anonymity I cant post the case ref... it is on the web under many different titles.
Tilly

*Edited by HG to remove info that might be sufficient to trace case. 21:15 28/05/09*
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 28 May 2009, 20:17

I think I've worked out the case - so I've edited the details incase you don't want anyone else to!

If I've found one case, was that the only thing that was taken to Court or were there more?

What I meant re accepting liability with Trustee 2:

Supposing you hit my car and my solicitors are negotiating with yours (it's actually more likely to be me hitting your car, but we won't mention that :oops: ).

I tell you that you dinged two panels and smashed two windows, and the claim is £600.

Your insurers accept that you were to blame, and are about to pay up to settle the claim.

Just before you do, I change solicitors. I tell you that I've also got back problems that my doctor says are utterly definitely inextricably linked to having been hit by your car. I now want £2,500 in total.

What hope have you got of turning round and saying that actually, you weren't liable for the accident at all?

----

Further, drawing on info that's not in the thread...

Supposing you say I shouldn't have changed solicitors at all, and, lets say, an insurance company gets to nominate a new one as I can't go back to the old one because they aren't there any more. Will any replacement solicitor not just pursue the same claim as my new one is?

You could try and get my solicitor (example doesn't work but you know what I mean) removed as of before the date he made the claim and say that nobody made the claim as there was nobody there to do it.

However in your case, you can't be without a ... we'll start referring to trustees again. So even if you get one removed, you automatically had another one from that same date that the one before resigned anyway.
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Piston broke on 28 May 2009, 20:29

Hi Tilly and hg.
Just a line to wish you luck tilly, been following this thread from the start and found it fascinating. Dont have a clue about whats going on , but will follow it to the end. xxx :D
My wife says I need glasses.....................So I can see things her way !!!
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby Hg on 28 May 2009, 21:58

Sorry - the thread's just taken a bizarre turn as I'm half referring to something that's not in it!
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Re: Notice of restriction/land registry

Postby tilly on 29 May 2009, 08:13

Piston Broke, thanks for the wishes of good luck, its a complicated story indeed, the real end of this story has happened as Im about to pay the trustee £25k, but as no one has ever filled in the gaps for me I found myself here, and Hg is doing a grand job of helping me here.
Im sure this thread will continue for a while longer as there are lots more little qustions.
Cheers Tilly :)
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